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Trail 4x4 noob looking for answers..

Discussion in 'Newbe Help' started by WebslingeR, Aug 26, 2012.

  1. WebslingeR

    WebslingeR New Member

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    Ok, so it's time to get back into RC. I already know what I want to buy of on road, and used them before, that would be an Associated product. But the closest I got to any 4x4 trail would be a Tamiya Lunch Box....stop laughing, It would run circles around your $9000 rig and I drove it in the Baja 1000..... ok..so it wouldn't, and I didn't.. lmao

    So I have a few questions:

    1) What would a recommendation be for a good 4x4 that parts are redily availble for and is some what durable without breaking the bank. Keep in mind for this question, I am going to be BUYING USED for sure. I NEVER keep any of the stock parts and only built one stock rig from the box (Associated RC10), and by the third week of owning only to pull all that I could replace with aftermarket more durable parts.

    2) With this question also, keep in mind I am in the states, so services would have to be down here,so without having to pay some incredible tax to get it over the border. Does anyone know of any other places to find used vehicles, other than my local shops (which I plan to hit) and Ebay?

    3)Techi question; When it comes to mount points , what is the difference between a regular , or a mod motor, and a brush-less motor? I use to run a Reedy 13 T crazy a** motor in my rc 10 for the modifieds regulation so I know about them a lot and they take a huge amount of maintenance after each run. Now I just want to know abount mounting differences.

    4) If the mounting is different does it take much to modify, or get a modified motor mount?

    5) Is there much maintenance with a brush-less motor?

    6) Ok. again, dont laugh, I believe the last time I ran my RC10 I think I was running a 6 cell 1900 mah, anyone have a recommended site, or the knowledge to just tell me the advances in batteries since 1990?


    I think that is it for my questions so far, just recommended unit, difference in motors, and updating me on batteries.

    If I posted this in the wrong spot, I'm sorry I didnt really find a noob question area so I went to the Trails area.
     
  2. TrickyD

    TrickyD New Member

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    1) Axial, Tamiya, RC4WD 2)RC Tech and RC universe for sale threads 3)? 4)? 5)Less than brushed 6)You were probably running NiCad, then we went to NimH, Now it's all about the LIPO's (Lithium Polymer) These are unique batteries and some research is advised before jumping right in because they can create a chemical fire if not properly maintained.
     
  3. Greenie

    Greenie VillAge iDioT
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    1) look up Axial SCX-10. this site is HEAVY with them. very capable rig, service seems great, parts(State side) i believe to be ok to get hold of.

    2) I use online sites like TowerHobbies.com and Amainhobies.com. both State side, fair pricing, and they ship to even me in Tasmania!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    3) a lot of us still use brushed motors, just a lot high turn. 27t-55t. they coupe with water and dirt better then a brushless(some brushless are brilliant at it to, don't get me wrong) but for ease of use, price, brushed is all good for trailing and scaling.

    4) most motor mountings are for 540 size cans

    5) nah, to really, just standard bearing maintenance, clean, replace or re-oil

    6) a lot of peeps are still running stick packs, lipo's can give you WAY more punch, longer run times and so on, in general, better, but for trailing, ye' old stick packs are fine, normally you'l be worn out before the pack goes flat(for larger capacity ones, so say 6 cell 4200mah or 5000 mah)

    hopefully thats a small start for you
     
  4. WebslingeR

    WebslingeR New Member

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    Excellent answers both, ....

    It seems though the Axial products are going to be out of my range..... I am still a little sceptical of the durability of the Tamiya stuff though, have they advanced enough that they make a good product now that isnt all "snappy" plastic?

    What about any 4wd's from Losee or...... I cant think of any other names .......that might be a little more reasonable...im looking to spend max about 200 used , or new? possibly with a radio included... I will also look at those other sites to check for some for sale...

    thank you for responses so far
     
  5. Crankbait

    Crankbait Think...
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    I love my Axial stuff, I gotta tell ya I have a soft spot in my heart for my Tamiya CC01.
    Sure the plastic is a little cheaper feeling, but it is by no means easy to break.

    You definitely have to drive it closer to how a real 1:1 rig would operate.
    I think that is why I like it so much.

    Truth be told though you are going to have a hard time finding a quality set up with a 200.00 budget.
     
  6. fordguy8790

    fordguy8790 Studio Forums Elite
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    Since you put trail 4x4 in your title, I thought it was a scale truck you were looking for... something that looks and performs like a realistic 1:1 rig would. If that is the case, the Axial SCX10 really can't be beat for price, durability, and parts support (both oem and aftermarket). Some run Tamiya rigs, but they generally aren't as capable.
     
  7. WebslingeR

    WebslingeR New Member

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    I appreciate everyone's answer and I am getting closer to my pick. I might have to find a used Axial, but that is for another forum...

    I also looked at the Tamiya CC01 in many kits, they look awesome and I am sure durable.. but can you modify them much so you get better trailing capability and maybe add some more articulation in the suspension? Is there many after market parts for them?

    So I am not mixed up here, a scale truck, or a scaler is what I am seeing people call them....are they still 1/10 scale?

    Can I make a crawler into a scale truck, or must it have something of a real truck chassis?

    Maybe there is a page, or site that I can look at that tells me the difference, other than body, between a scaler and a regular 4x4 rc truck?
     
    #7 WebslingeR, Aug 26, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2012
  8. fordguy8790

    fordguy8790 Studio Forums Elite
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    Yes, scalers are typically 1:10 scale. The CC01 is limited mostly by the plastic chassis and independent front suspension setup... Since Axials have a ladder frame and solid axles, articulation comes much easier.
     
  9. WebslingeR

    WebslingeR New Member

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    Ok, could I make a crawler into a scale truck?
     
  10. fordguy8790

    fordguy8790 Studio Forums Elite
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    To an extent... what kind of crawler are you looking at?
     
  11. Greenie

    Greenie VillAge iDioT
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    for sure!!! you can do what ever you want man!!!! quite a few guys have turned comp crawlers into scalers. as long as your not wanting to run in comps, really the rules are what ever you make them!!!!!!!
    I think the comps specify that you need a Ladder chassis???????? dont quote me on that!!! someone who knows the rules for scale comps will have to chim in there......


    but really, as long as it has a realistic body, not over the top tyres(1.9s - 2.2 size) I'd say you can call ya'self a scaler!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    (thats my personal opinion, other would disagree with me on that, and thats totally cool!!!!!)
    as long as you think it looks scale, thats good enough for me!!!!!
     
  12. WebslingeR

    WebslingeR New Member

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    I saw one earlier but got rolled into Medics how to water resist your ride, So I will have to find it again, I want to say it was a HPI Crawler King , but dont quote me on that.

    I found "the" rules for comp scale, I am not saying these are the same in all areas, this is going to be a big post as I wont link to another RC forum site out of respect.

    Current reworked rules.
    1.9” Class
    This class is modeled after typical street-legal off-road vehicles, non-trailered vehicles. These rules are set up to judge a scale truck as the "sum of its parts." The goal is to have trucks that resemble something you might actually see driving down a highway on the way to the trail. Understand the "spirit" of the rules and work within them.

    > Chassis: The chassis or frame must be a ladder style and extend over the axles. Competition style RC rock crawling chassis are not allowed. This includes twin vertical plate designs (TVP), "stick" style, torsion and forced articulation. Tub style chassis are allowed.


    > Wheels & Tires: Wheels are restricted to OEM 1.9” size. If the tires are cut down 2.2’s, they must fit onto a standard 1.9” rim and not exceed 4.25” in height and 1.75” in width. Flywheels brand wheels and tires and 1/18-scale Nylint brand wheels and tires will be allowed. 2.0's wheels are allowed as long as the tire attached is either a stock 1.9 tire or cut & shut tire that falls into the restrictions.

    > Body: You must run a complete body, bumpers, fenders, doors and tailgates must be intact. Moderate fender trimming is allowed, but the basic shape of the fender must be retained. If no doors are run, the vehicle must have an interior (dash, floorpan, seats, etc). If no tailgate is used, the bed must be built out (drop bed). A shortened or lengthened body is allowed. A tubed bed must have a functional bed area capable of carrying a full-size spare laid flat, and tail lights(need not function), (rear fender and tailgate rules to not apply to tubed beds).

    > Steering: 4-wheel steering is illegal.

    > Drivetrain: A chassis mounted transmission and/or transfer case are allowed. Front or rear dig, cutting bakes, motor on axle (MOA) designs are illegal. Chassis with single or dual integrated motors are allowed, but the motors must always be powered (no electronic digs).

    > Wheelbase and width: The dimensions of the vehicle are limited only by the body, but it must fit within the body’s fender wells.

    > Comp-day modifications: The vehicle must be run as it was setup for tech inspection.

    > Battery: The Battery must be placed on or within the chassis.
    __________________________________________________ ________________________
    2.2” Class
    This class is modeled after typical off-road use vehicles, non-trailered vehicles and trailered vehicles. These rules are set up to judge a scale truck as the "sum of its parts." The goal is to have trucks that resemble something you might see driving on a trail. a purpose built off road vehicle (mud truck, hardcore trail truck, non competition rock crawler, ETC.) Understand the "spirit" of the rules and work within them.

    > Chassis: The chassis or frame must be a ladder style and extend over the axles. Competition style RC rock crawling chassis are not allowed. This includes twin vertical plate designs (TVP), "stick" style, torsion and forced articulation. Tub style chassis are allowed.


    > Wheels & Tires: Wheels are restricted to OEM 2.2” size. all OEM tires are legal, any modified tires may be no larger then 5.5"

    > Body: You must run a body, fenders, doors and tailgates must be intact. Moderate fender trimming is allowed, but the basic shape of the fender must be retained. If no doors are run, the vehicle must have an interior (dash, floorpan, seats, etc). If no tailgate is used, the bed must be built out (drop bed). A shortened or lengthened body is allowed. A tubed bed must have a functional bed area capable of carrying a full-size spare, and tail lights(need not function), (rear fender and tailgate rules to not apply to tubed beds). All vehicles should be able to accommodate a minimum of a driver and passenger(no single seat buggys)

    > Steering: 4-wheel steering is illegal.

    > Drivetrain: A chassis mounted transmission and/or transfer case are mandated. Front or rear dig, cutting bakes, motor on axle (MOA) designs are illegal. Chassis with single or dual integrated motors are allowed, but the motors must always be powered (no electronic digs). A switchable transfer case is allowed, but only between 4x4 and 2x4 (rear wheel drive).

    > Wheelbase and width: The dimensions of the vehicle are limited only by the body, but it must fit within the body’s fender wells. Width is unrestricted.

    > Comp-day modifications: The vehicle must be run as it was setup for tech inspection.

    > Battery: The Battery must be placed on or within the chassis.

    >·No truck will be allowed with a RTI score over 500* measured from the bottom of the tire.

    >“Tuber” vehicles will be addressed on site and maybe allowed to run in this class but no guarantee is given. All tubers must have at least a hood, grille, and side panels. Tubers should try to adhere to the spirit of "scale" and look as realistic as possible.

    *When a RTI scale is available then all 2.2 scale trucks will be qualified with a RTI score. The scoring
    method is as follows: Vertical distance traveled up the scale (measured from the ground to the wheel nut)
    divided by wheelbase multiplied by 1000. For example the distance traveled up the ramp is 5” the
    wheelbase is 10.5” (5 / 10.5 = .4761) .4761 * 1000 = 476.1 (round off) 476 would be the final RTI score. If
    no RTI scale is available then a manual method may be used to determine RTI score. Raise one wheel up
    with your hand. At the height where another wheel starts to loose contact measure the vertical distance
    between the ground and bottom of tire. Use that measurement to determine RTI score.

    __________________________________________________ ______________
    Points:

    Scale Class: All rigs in the Scale class will start off with 0 points and points will be deducted during the competitions. The object is complete the course without incurring points. Point deductions are listed below. Speed is rewarded.

    Reverse + 1 point
    Rollover + 5 points
    Gate + 5 points
    Touch + 5 points
    Time: - 5 points (awarded if course completed in time allowance: An additional -5 points will be awarded to the fastest time)
    DNF + 40 points + 5 points per gate not completed
    *Rescue - 5 points

    Reverse: Using the throttle to reverse course. Non powered roll backs are allowed. During gated courses each driver is allowed 1 reverse per gate without penalty.

    Rollover: Points are assessed when a vehicle rolls over and does not right itself or can not be righted without touching. Winching is allowed without incurring a penalty. Once righted the vehicle must be driven back into position. All gates not already cleared are still live while on a gated course.

    Gate: Failure to pass all 4 wheels through a gate or touching a gate with any part of the vehicle. Gate must be cleared in its intended direction. Winching through a gate is allowed. Once a gate is cleared that gate is dead.

    Touch: Any contact made to the vehicle by any person during a run. If the touch is resulting in the vehicle being placed back on course the vehicle may not be placed any further forward than the most recent point of progress.

    Winch: Winches may be used at any time along the course without penalty unless any part of the winch touches a gate. If that occurs a gate penalty will be assessed.

    Time: A 5:00 minute (or 1 minute per gate) time limit can be applied per run, this is not required and will be at the discretion of those judging the courses.

    DNF: If a vehicle is unable to complete the course regardless of reason a DNF will be assessed. If a DNF is assessed then they will be scored with +40 points add to their current point total plus 5 points for every gate not completed.

    *Rescue: Using another vehicle to free a vehicle on course. The rescue vehicle will only be allowed during runs in which the buddy system is in place. The rescuer will receive the bonus points.

    *Buddy System: When the buddy system is in use 2 vehicles will run the course, the leading vehicle is the one being scored during that run. The “buddy” is the follower and will not be scored unless a rescue is requested. After the course has been completed the drivers will reverse order and the “buddy” now becomes the leader. Driving order will be decided by a coin flip. Buddy pairing will also be decided by chance. Method of determination will be decided on site based on number of participants.
    __________________________________________________ ___________
    Scale appearance points will be deducted from the final score of each event. Appearance points are listed below.

    -5 Points (up to a maximum of 20 points)
    ·Hard body (rigid construction, usually abs or polystyrene: essentially any body that is not lexan)
    ·Detailed Bed (drop beds, flat beds, tube beds: should be realistic representations)
    ·Interior detail (must have at least driver & passenger seat, dashboard, & steering wheel)
    ·Offroad trailer (must be towed during entire event)

    -3 Points (up to a maximum of 15 points)
    ·Roof rack with large scale item (canoe or similar, item must be secured to rack with tie downs; no Velcro will be permitted.)
    ·Bed item with large scale item (quad, dirt bikes or similar, item must be secured with tie downs; no Velcro will be permitted.)
    ·Realistic bumpers (point per bumper)
    ·Functional winch (per winch, front or rear)
    ·Functional spare tire (should be same size as being run on vehicle; i.e. no 1.9 spare on a 2.2 vehicle)
    ·Scale engine (i.e. Parma hemi)


    -1 Point (up to a maximum of 10 points)
    ·Functional Lights (per set: Headlights / tail lights / roof / rollbar / crawling)
    ·Driver / Passenger figure (should be scale in size, in other words a 4 inch G.I. Joe figure in a 1/6 scale truck wouldn’t work. 1 point per person)
    ·Spare tire (non functional)
    ·Non Functional Winch (per winch, front or rear)
    ·Scale accessories (jerry cans, cooler, snatch straps, etc {multiples of a particular item will only score once: for example if you have 2 jerry cans you will only score for 1 jerry can})


    Custom Body Bonus: This bonus is awarded for custom build work done to a body, this ranges from stretching, widening, combining, and scratch building. This is added on top of Scale points.

    -5 points for any major custom body work (i.e. building a crew cab, grafting lexan and hard bodies*, etc)
    -5 points for major tubular work. (i.e. full exocage, full tube chassis that supports and/or conforms to the body)
    -10 points for scratch builds (i.e. building a body from the ground up; no OEM basis)

    *50% rule applies to lexan/hard combos; in the case of a lexan/hard combo the body will be judged on the basis of whether it is more than 50% lexan or more than 50% hard.

    __________________________________________________ ____
    Events

    Events will vary from location to location. Below is a compilation of approved events with brief guidelines. A time limit of 5:00 minutes per course can be implemented if desired.

    Gated Trail:
    This is pretty much self explanatory. Each course will vary in length but will typically be between 5 and 10 gates. The width of each gate will vary depending on the location but generally the width should be no less than 12 inches.

    Hill Climb:
    Once again this is a fairly straight forward; with a location selected you will simply have a start and finish. Fastest time wins; if no one completes the course then furthest distance wins. *Gates can be added to this event.

    Time Trial:
    This event will be determined by terrain. This will be a multi-terrain event. It should comprise of at least 3 various types of terrain. For example a course may begin with a rock crawl section, proceed to a hill climb section and then finish up with a high speed dirt road section. The fastest time will be the winner. *Gates can be added to this event.

    Trail Ride:
    This is not a competitive event it is intended to be just for fun. One driver leads the pack through whatever terrain and obstacles he/she chooses. This event is all about fun, camaraderie, and testing your vehicles capabilities.

    Mud Bog
    This can be run as a timed or gated course. Typically set up as a drag style race, straight course, first to finish or furthest distance. It's up to the host club to decide how run and set up this event."


    So now that I know the rules, It has opened more options for me...

    Thank you all for the help, and Medic if you read this maybe you can check with your race committee to see if these are in fact the right rules and we could post them in a sticky somewhere?

    Thanks again all...
     
    #12 WebslingeR, Aug 26, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2012
  13. Magnat007

    Magnat007 Proud SCX10 Owner
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    Look if your dealing with a small amount of cash and just wanna get a decent trail rig.. the RC4WD Trail Stomper is probably going to be your best bet.
    Its around the $300 price point but would probably be the closest you can get to a SCX10 as far as scale realism is.. are they as durable as the SCX10, No are they as capable, Well, almost.

    The CC-01 is limited, especially if you wish to Comp.... They are a great scale rig but you would need some pretty fancy suspension set up to go the same places as the SCX10.

    If you already have Radio gear, ESC and motor you can swap out from another rig, Look for a Roller.. Someone may have an SCX10 that needs some love....

    Its hard to get into trailing for under $500 including Batteries and charger... It can be done if you dont mind not getting the absolute best.
    Nimh Batts and chargers can be scored off ebay for very little outlay..

    -
     
    #13 Magnat007, Aug 27, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2012

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